3rd gen scaps

[lou bertalan]

hi,

this bird with quite worn coverts seems to have some 3rd gen. scapulars, am i right? they seem to be moulted recently and look almost plain grey, maybe slightly darker than those of adults. bucharest, 31.12.09 pics by cristian.

lou

[Theo Muusse]

Yes, the lower scaps may be late moulted 2nd gen feathers, the upper scaps may very well be 3rd gen.

Theo

[JanJ]

3rd generation scapulars in a 1cy (1st cycle) cachinnans would be pretty advanced. Probably 2nd generation after all, since wear/bleaching and sometimes weak parttern on a greyish ground colour in these feathers makes them look grey, especially at a distance.

http://www.helsinki.fi/~rauste/tre2004/ ... 55017.html

http://www.pbase.com/slisch/image/117865315

http://www.pbase.com/slisch/image/103226617

Jan

[lou bertalan]

hi jan,

of course some 2nd gen scaps can look almost plain in caspian and jörgens pic (your 3rd link) shows this well. usually there is a dark shaft streak visible though. and we might need better resolution pics to have a detailed view on single feathers in the herastrau bird. my question was if we could apply a similar moult sequence in caspian scaps like mars decribed it in this post ("1cy in YLG"-thread):

"The moult process in the scapulars is very difficult to describe, as there is so much variation between individuals, but also because there is so much variation in the patterns. In general, 2nd gen feathers have an anchor pattern, sometimes with some extra transversal bars. This anchor may be obvious, dark brown and broad, but it may as well be ill defined, in which the subterminal line may be almost lacking, leaving a single shaft streak as 'the pattern'. When these patterns are ill defined plus they are pale brown, the pattern may be hard to detect when feathers grow older.

From mid November onwards into the winter, it is pretty safe to conclude that fresh upper scapulars, reckognised by the grey tone, must be 3rd gen scapulars. This is moreover true, when the 'scapular coverts' have been replaced for 2nd gen feathers. These scapular coverts are the longest, rear lower scapulars, laying on top of the tertials, and in 99.9% of the birds, these are the last feathers from the 'scapular region' to be replaced. For S France michahellis, the end of November is more or less the time.

By late November, many birds start subsequent moult wave in the upper scapulars, replacing the second generation feathers for third generation. The last moulted second generation lower scapulars show a brownish or buffish based centre with a pattern of dark bars or anchor pattern. The feathers show a broad white fringe. The new third generation feathers can show various patterns:
- again very second generation-like with anchor patterns but again with warm brown centres;
- a grey base with ill-defined anchor pattern close to the tip;
- plain grey feathers with a dark shaft streak.
Complete grey feathers are very rare, but some 1cy November birds tend to show plain grey, adult-like feathers (e.g. 947X, ringed 1cy michahellis from S France: http://www.gull-research.org/ylg1cy2cy/ ... ha947x.htm).

Moult in the scapulars seem to be an ongoing process right from fledging to late-November. Scapular moult may continue at a very slow pace during the winter months from December to March, but the major replacements take place until November. This is illustrated by the images in Nov 1cy (http://www.gull-research.org/ylg1cy2cy/ ... 1cynov.htm), which hardly show a bird with obvious moult gaps in the scapular region.
The extend of this scapular moult is probably strongly influenced by hedging date, but more research is necessary. November 2003, we checked 43 ringed 1cy michahellis in S France, at various locations. About 20% of these birds had all upper scapulars still second generation, without fresh third generation feathers. This figure may be higher (up to 33%) as observation distance was too far in some cases to fully exclude small third generation upper scapulars at the division of the mantle feathers, but third generation scapular scores in these birds must have been low anyway.
About 45% of the 1cy birds in S France had at least moulted some upper scapulars to third generation (45% of the birds fall in class 1-25% scapulars moulted to 3rd generation). Most advanced birds showed an almost completely replaced upper scapular region (2 birds fall in class 75-99% of upper scapulars third generation) and one of these birds even moulted most lower scapulars to third generation (class 50-75%)."

this would imply that some scaps and mantle feathers could indeed be 3rd generation. aren't there missing many lower scaps?
it is said that pontic gull is slightly later in moult than YLG on average. it is true that we don't see as much advanced cachinnans with largely replaced wing coverts in postjuvenile moult as we see it in many YLG. from the lately pics of 1cy YLG one might conclude that many southern michahellis (greece, mallorca) are more advanced than central european or black sea birds (earlier hatching). but pontic gulls hatch around mid may in romania (murighiol) which is rel. early too. and some caspians do show plain grey scaps from midwinter - which led me to the question if they are late moulted 2nd gen or even 3rd gen scaps. of course some statictical research on this topic would be welcomed but who should do it...

attached a bird from 14.02.2008 (herastrau park bucharest, cristian mihai) - a bird with many grey scaps and some greyish coverts, although most of them are not visible unfortunately.

all the best,

lou

[Ruud Altenburg]

http://www.xs4all.nl/~daarruud/polen2/c ... ns2cy.html

The birds in pictures 5, 8 and 10-11 mostly likely have acquired third generation scapulars. Note that the pattern is very similar to the lower scapulars that normally are grown in the latest.

[marsmuusse]

Things are complicated when you score scapulars:
1. the location for the fresh feathers is important. I copied the 5th image from Ruud's site (Ruud thanks ) and I'm pretty sure the rear scpaulars in the lowest row (rear lls, location 2) are 2nd gen feathers. This is standard in several taxa, the last group of feathers (and longest scapulars) replaced in the sequence. So, albeit fresh, and maybe sometimes plain grey in general, by mid-winter it is hard to find late 1cy or January 2cy birds with these feathers replaced for 3rd gen (but I'm reluctant to see them appearing on this forum of course!).
The feathers at location 1 are most probably fresh, 3rd gen feathers, as are several mantle feathers just above them on the back.
This aslo works the other way around: once the rear lls have been replaced for 2nd gen feathers (as in this bird), it is wise (imo) to call fresh scapulars 3rd gen feathers at other loci in the scapulars (when adjacent feathers are old 2nd gen).
Having said this, I must admit I do believe the scapulars are moulted in at least some kind of standard sequence, which is of course a tricky thing to do in gulls...
2. probably well known to most people, the pattern of feathers in a single row may be different when moulted in different time periods, although the feathers are both from the same (e.g. 2nd) generation. But also, the locus in the feather tract must be prepared hormone-wise, to let new feathers look different (more adult). So, if a locus is not stimulated, the new feathers may look immature again.

[JanJ]

I take it that Mars by 3rd generation upper scapulars in Ruud's bird mean the grey unmarked ones. The subject Caspian by Christian seems to have both upper and lower scapulars worn - as are the coverts. As mars pointed out - it´s important to be able to locate and properly see the fresh feathers.
The below bird illustrates the point mentioned by Mars about different looking feathers grown in at different times but being of the same gen.

http://www.netfugl.dk/pictures.php?id=s ... re_id=8557

Jan

[michal rycak]

Undigging old thread, today i found 1cy caspian with 1 rear scapular, which seems to be 3rd gen. Photo is not so good, but in live view it was distinctive adult like colour, just these single one in whole scaps.
What do you think guys, is it really 3rd gen?